Page Number Versus Position on Kindle
willd on Aug 10th 2008
This is a much bruited topic and one that creates a little bit of anxiety for us bibliophiles who have made the conversion to the Kindle. How can I tell what page I am on??? I mean, I have only spent my whole life using page numbers as the reference point for a) how far along in the book I am, and b) any references to the text that I want to make in a post, article, or other scholarly writing.
This lingering anxiety tells me something about the “purpose” of the Kindle. That purpose is reading in a “frictionless” way (adjective courtesy of Jeff Bezos). The Kindle is not very well set up to address these other little anxieties I feel.
So, I got out my calculator to see if I could find a rule for converting Kindle’s “position number” into the “page numbers” of the actual book.
OK, first problem: which actual book–the hardcover, the paperback? First editions, fifth edition? Right there you see the intractability of the problem.
But I forged on, nonetheless, with my hardcover copy of Carol Dweck’s Mindset. You get the wackiest correlation if you try to literally use every paper page fo the book. First, all those pages aren’t in the Kindle edition. Second, spacing considerations make it almost impossible to come up with a formula that is anywhere near accurate if you try to use all the pages.
I got closest to a useful formula when I took the first actual numbered page of the book (not including the introduction)–that is, a page with “1″ on it, and looked up the corresponding “position” on my Kindle. As it turns out, Page 1 appears at position “95″ on the Kindle. Then, I went to the last full page of the text, page 239 (not the notes, index, or other “last” page) and checked the position: 4035. So, I had 3940 positions spread over 236 pages (the first page of text was actually page 3). 3940 divided by 236 yields 16.69 positions per page.
Using this formula I could pretty much find the page in book if I knew the position. In all my test cases, I landed within one page of the text I was searching for if I divided the position number by 16.69.
Whew! If you have a friend with the print book and you want to point them to a passage, use of the chapter number might be your best bet. If they want to point you to a passage, you can search for a key term. Or you can both try this little formula and wait for the MLA to provide us some guidance!
Filed in The Kindle Reading Experience | 31 responses so far
Lee Ann Spillane Aug 17th 2008 at 04:48 am 1
The dots along the bottom of the page, as you explained them, are so helpful to me now! Thank you. I like knowing where I am in the book and who knew I used that to anticipate the text?!
Richard Mar 22nd 2009 at 06:30 pm 2
Very helpful, thanks!
Mark Eifler May 6th 2009 at 06:45 pm 3
Thanks for the conversion formula–but the problem cannot be easily solved by MLA.
I am a history professor, and having ebooks would be a boon to reading, teaching, etc. BUT the lack of page numbers is the tip of the iceberg here. If MLA were to accept Kindle Locations instead of page numbers, how would someone else look the citation up? This is the point of having a citation, after all. Currently I can either buy the book, or (much more likely) I can look it up in a library. But the ONLY way to look up a Kindle location in a citation is to both buy a Kindle and to then buy the book itself. Libraries cannot share Kindle books.
Today Kindle released the Kindle DX for education, but this problem is likely to be a major problem for Amazon, and may make it incredibly difficult for them to penetrate the academic market. It seems to me there are two possible solutions: Kindle books switch to (or add in) page numbers that correspond to a printed text, OR they make multiple Kindle available to libraries and scholars, and distribute ebooks freely or very next to it (say a one day rental for ten cents, somewhat in the way iTunes lets you rent movies as well as own them). The page number seems the fastest and easiest solution.
Please note, I am not a lover of page numbers for their own sake. The Location is actually more precise in looking up a citation. BUT the problem is in the inability of other scholars (or a student’s professors) to check on a citation freely–literally “free”-ly. E books have tremendous potential in academia–given the need to publish, and especially in the current market where publishing of any kind (but especially academic publishing) is extremely limited. Were Kindle to simply list page numbers, it could become a booming platform for academic publishing–both books and journals. Given the potential, and Amazon’s goal of penetrating the academic market, it is mystifying why they decided to eliminate the page number.
Dreggor Gade May 23rd 2009 at 07:03 pm 4
Well said, Mark. I, too, am having the same problem. Truthfully, it ought to be quite a simple matter for Amazon to include a selection with the wheel (or 2G nub) that can selection the “location” and translate it into what the standard paper text edition would number it as in relation to pages. That really would be an exceptionally simple matter to tackle an introduce in a software update, and an absolutely necessary one if they want to successfully tout the new DX as an academic or business tool.
There are only two reasons that I can imagine Amazon would not add this basic functionality. One, if they are trying pull some of that Apple/iTunes “proprietary” b.s. in order to rake in some extra cash by crippling their product. If so, for shame. Two, it may perhaps be some little, screwy clause Amazon has with the individual book’s publishing companies that contractually does not allow Amazon to provide that information, with the publishers greedily and indifferently hoping to make consumers and writers alike “double dip” with an electronic and paper version of their text. If so, for shame.
Regardless, I am going to write and call Amazon specifically about this because it’s becoming too problematic. I highly recommend that everyone reading this does the same thing so that we, the consumers, are heard and kept satisfied, especially when this involves our livelihoods.
Dean Ritz Jun 3rd 2009 at 02:27 pm 5
The field of law solved this. Based on the original publication of a judicial decision, electronic reprints use *### (e.g, “*723″) to indicate the start of a page with that number. It’s placed inline of the text. That way, the opinions can be formatted and distributed without losing the anchor to the original (reference) pagination. This doesn’t require new technology in the Kindle… just the insertion of those characters in the text. If they wanted to add a feature to the Kindle, the page number notation, above, could be made visible or invisible as a preference.
Wayne Jun 6th 2009 at 11:21 am 6
Page numbers are not a good solution for finding the position in a book. Think of the case of trying to tell somewhere a spot in their hardback version of a book when the other person only has the paperback. The pages don’t match. While education gets around this by requiring a particular printed edition, it would actually be better if printed books changed from numbering their pages to numbering their sentences (which is essentially what Kindle location numbers are). If publishers could come up with a standardized position indicator (and basing it on sentences seems like a nice way to go), it could be used in all paper books and ebooks. People would just need to get used to seeing something like “42 – 69″ on the page instead of “11″. For a paper book, a good transition scheme may even be to include both the location range for the page and an edition-specific page number.
Grace Curtis Jun 11th 2009 at 11:30 pm 7
I agree with Wayne. Yes, thinking about pages is thinking inside the box. Good response Wayne!
Ken Klemme Jun 17th 2009 at 05:51 pm 8
Or… MLA could come up with a citation rule for electronic print media, since standardized citation methodology is what what they exist to do!
David Stewart Jun 19th 2009 at 08:22 am 9
The legal reference system is a good point. Another system of common reference numbers can be seen in any good edition of, say, Plato’s dialogues. Scholars use the system all the time.
I would NOT want inline references, though—not visible ones, though. It would be great to have them as something that can be turned on and off, and used in a contents or location table.
Lisa McElroy Jun 23rd 2009 at 03:21 pm 10
I am also having huge problems with this, as I now do most of my book reading on my Kindle. I am an academic, however, and can’t cite to pages. I am having to have my assistant look through the hard copy book, which I request from the library, and I tell her “about half way through” or something like that. If anyone comes up with a good way to figure this out, I would appreciate it.
P.S. As a law professor, I teach my students about “star pincites” all the time. I agree with David Stewart that this would be a nice feature to turn on and off. It would also help for my book club, as I can’t follow when someone says, “I liked the language on page XXX.”
Kat Parr Jun 24th 2009 at 02:04 pm 11
One thing I’ve noticed w/r/t this, is that the Location numbers change with font size. This leads me to believe that the numbers are based on some formula having to do with paragraphs and word count. I’m experimenting with that to see what I can come up with. For example, in a Kindle version of The Trial, at the third smallest font size, the final paragraph at Location 1000-1009 begins “That spring, whenever possible, K. usually…”. However, when “flipping” to the next page and the continuation of the sentence …”spent his evenings after work – …” the location is 1009-19. Thus it’s possible that 1009 is the start/continuation indicator of the paragraph beginning on the previous page, and 19 is some indicator of… ? I have no idea, actually. Sigh.
Jim Oct 25th 2009 at 04:22 am 12
I was reading your article when i realized something. What are we supposed to use, the number in the middle of the page or the number on the right hand side? Because it doesn’t seem like you specified
MIchele Nov 14th 2009 at 02:06 pm 13
I am a graduate student and used my Kindle DX for the first time for a class assignment. I was able to find a text for $9.99 that was otherwise on sale for over $100, so naturally the e-format was a no- rainer. As we discussed the book in class, I struggled to keep up with my professor and classmates as they would refer to a page number and collectively read from it. I couldn’t follow along. My suggestion is to faintly place the original page number as it appeared in the first edition, or have a feature that one could query the original page number of the first edition. It would be nice if this could be uploaded for current editions so we don’t all have to go buy the next edition of an expensive Kindle. This does not solve the subsequent paperback edition problems, but if first editions were the standard, it might help the fast majority.
Regarding citations, I now face this dilemma for a MLA paper I will soon be writing. The best advice I have seen is to reference Kindle, where the publisher would be, and then to add (Ch. 3(paragraph symbol) paragraph number). Sorry, don’t have my guide for symbols at hand. That would work for anyone who wants to verify via a printed resource and for the vast majority of editions. Most edition changes I’ve seen come in the preface, epilogue or correct a typo, but contextually, chapter paragraphs are not likely to change all that much.
MIchele Nov 14th 2009 at 02:07 pm 14
no-brainer and vast majority. Geesh!
heather Nov 18th 2009 at 02:54 am 15
What about looking up a certain page number the author references within the book. For example, see the list on pages 282-283. How do I find that?
Mick Nov 21st 2009 at 09:52 pm 16
I’m having the same problem. I’m working on my thesis, and several of the books I use I acquired for a significantly lower price than a hard copy. The ability to search marginalia notes in the Kindle also makes finding and organizing my own thoughts significantly easier. However, I am now being told that in order to use the works, I have to track down a hard copy of the work for citation purposes. MLA needs to come up with a practical solution quickly. E-readers are here to stay, and MLA waiting two years and counting to provide an answer is ridiculous.
Bill Attinger Nov 23rd 2009 at 04:07 pm 17
Why couldn’t we just translate page numbers into % completion? This would universally translate. Carry it out three or four decimals and you’s have a pretty accurate pointer for locating exactly where you are in a book no matter whether it’s paperback, hardback, large font or small font on Kindle/eBook. It would universally translate across all eBook formats, too, and give even the average joe an understandable reference for progress in completing a book.
gagan Nov 24th 2009 at 01:00 pm 18
Bill Attinger
Totally agree with you.
Batman Jr. Nov 25th 2009 at 04:51 pm 19
Can you use APA format as a substitute? The APA this summer released guidelines for its citation protocol, examples of which can be found at this site:
http://blog.apastyle.org/apastyle/2009/09/how-do-i-cite-a-kindle.html
McKenna Dec 28th 2009 at 02:42 am 20
http://www.bookmonk.com came up with a formula which approximates the physical page number from your kindle location and vice versa…. you can also access this website from the kindle’s web browser.
Lola Jan 5th 2010 at 09:47 pm 21
thank you SO much that helped me aton!
Benzi Jan 6th 2010 at 08:58 am 22
Does anyone knows what the numbers in the location mean. They surely have a formula to create it. What is it? I thought the the numbers of words would be appropriate.
Anthony Jan 11th 2010 at 10:30 pm 23
Well, I just received my new kindle and I am so disappointed! I love the screen and how the text looks. But the navigation stinks! The navigation through the books with location in lieu on page number is insane and impossible to make sense of when trying to find a reference such as Romans 1:5 forget, impossible. Also when you bookmark it just bookmarks a location and when I am reading there is no reference on top in regards to where I am, what book, what chapter what page.. uuuuuuuuugh. insanity. This may take me a long time to get used to or I just might return it and go back to paper.
Dana Jan 20th 2010 at 12:37 pm 24
@Anthony,
I use 3 search friendly Bibles on my Kindle… The Direct Verse Jump is VERY helpful.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B002VWKFJ6/ref=docs-os-doi_0 for the WEB Bible
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B002V1I4I6/ref=docs-os-doi_0 for the NET Bible
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B002TG4P8Q/ref=docs-os-doi_0 for the KJV Bible
After learning the abbreviations for all the books, I can flip through my Kindle Bibles faster than a paper Bible.
I hope this helps.
sandy price Jan 20th 2010 at 04:18 pm 25
I am a college instructor, and teach a couple of online courses. I require my students to cite to page numbers. The reason is two-fold. First is Michele’s problem – the ability to go back to the “book” to read what the professor and other students are referring to. The second reason is that citations help me believe the students are reading, and not simply paraphrasing class discussion into their homework assignments. Right now I am struggling with a poor overseas student who is awaiting the arrival of a textbook. We’ve tried finding page numbers in Google Book, but Google Book doesn’t have all the pages available for viewing, so he can’t plug in his quote and necessarily pull up the page. Page numbers are the standard citation format for all academia, and unless and until that changes, Amazon really needs to find a way to add pagination to its product.
willd Jan 21st 2010 at 08:24 am 26
Thanks for the comment, Sandy. If the instructor had a copy of the Kindle book, wouldn’t a reference to the “location” number provided by amazon be sufficient? Since everyone can now see those position numbers by loading Kindle for PC (not sure of the status for Mac), wouldn’t this suffice?
willd Jan 21st 2010 at 08:25 am 27
Very useful idea, Dana. How does the Direct Verse Jump work on the Kindle?
Lucas Feb 10th 2010 at 09:56 am 28
or, you can just search the page you want to reference in google books, and fill out the mla citation using the page number ect. provided in the google books copy.
SIDNEY Mar 18th 2010 at 10:35 pm 29
Bem, pessoal, se eles vão publicar livros em Português, eles terão necessariamente quem leia este texto para eles. Eu tenho o Kindle for osx e não o aparelho. Comprei um primeiro livro para testar o uso e se eu soubesse que uma coisa tão básica para referenciação como a correspondência entre o número de páginas da página no Kindle e o da edição impressa não seria atendida, eu não teria gastado meu suado dinheirinho de professor universitário. Bom, mas a menos que a Amazon conserte esse furo, não gastarei mais meu dinheiro com isso. Só espero que o iPad trate essa questão de forma correta.
[Ed. Note: Here is a translation from Google Translate: "Well, folks, if they will publish books in Portuguese, they will necessarily who read this text to them. I got the Kindle for osx and not the device. I bought a book first to test the use and if I knew that something as basic as referencing the correlation between the number of pages on the Kindle page and the printed edition would not be met, I would not have spent my hard-earned money as a university professor. Good, but unless the Amazon fix that hole, it will not spend my money on it. I just hope that the iPad treat this issue properly."]
Thanks for the comment, Sidney!
Lauryn Apr 15th 2010 at 11:02 am 30
Hi,
So I’m using the kindle in place of an actual book in one of my classes and my professor listed the chapter titles and the page numbers of the book. At first I tried to go through a whole series of calculations but i noticed that my kindle on the first page of the chapter which is supposed to be pg. 49 gave me the location of 489-94. After trying to figure out which page correlated at the text size I was using to the actual paper book used in class I discovered that the location numbers were probably supposed to stand for 489-494. Once I discovered this I continued to go through the chapter and see if my marks for where each page should stop and start matched the changing locations and it did. I determined that for every 1.5 pages of my kindle 2 there would be 1 page of the real book. Page 50 in the real book would start at location 494-502 and then would continue to location number 502-09 or 502-509. The first two digits of the location number for the entire book on my kindle have so far matched with the page numbers for the actual book. The last number which I’m assuming has something to do with the formatting of the kindle has to do with where in the page the kindle had to cut for the text size to move to the next page. They split the page into 9 sections. if a cite lies in section 523-30 it means that in a the real book of the same exact edition and copy the page where the information found lies from 3/9′s of the way through pg 52 to the beginning of pg 53. I’ve assumed that the last location in the range of numbers is likely the last line of the of the first pg listed or the first line of the last pg given. I havn’t proven this to work for all my books yet but if it does i’ll let you all know.
willd Apr 16th 2010 at 09:15 am 31
Thanks Lauryn! Have you seen the suggested citation format from the APA? I wonder if the calculation method will ever work well enough for the academic world… Have you run your approach past your professor yet? BTW, your direct experience with this problem is very enlightening to read about!